STIR THE POTS

Thomas Treffi-Chambelland

 

@guilaume megevand

I found French baker Thomas Treffi-Chambelland via Youtube. Besides being a baker, he's a miller, and he has a school in Provence for bread baking. My admiration grew from reading his book,Traité de boulangerie au levain, a classic for anyone interested in baking bread. Though both his book and Youtube channel are only offered in French, soon they'll be delivered in English and Spanish. Wanting to introduce him to an English-speaking audience, I'm delighted he agreed to be interviewed here at Stir the Pots.

What made you leave science for bread?

Passion and unconsciousness! If I had in mind the sum of the difficulties I was going to encounter along the way, I might not have made this conversion.  And I'm glad I didn't suspect them, because in the end it's been a wonderful, creative and very free professional and human journey. I would never have imagined managing bakeries in Aix en Provence, Lyon, Paris, a school, a mill and franchises!

How does CAP work and is the course applicable for foreign students?

CAP is a very basic level in french bakery field. Most of the students are disillusioned young people on the margins of the mainstream school system. Unfortunately, vocational courses are still devalued in France. The CAP is therefore a diploma for workers in conventional bakeries. Sourdough is not covered, nor is organic. The training aims to produce handlers capable of working behind ovens, dividers and shapers. The level of theoretical education is close to nothing.

What is EIDB’s goal for bread?

First of all, the EIDB is a small structure. I don't have a goal for bread in general. That would be pretentious. I basically like freedom. I am a libertarian and I like to apply this also professionally. The EIDB is therefore an unusual structure in France.

By its small size (we welcome a maximum of 11 trainees per session), by its staffing level (there are 7 of us working for 11 trainees. 3 secretaries and 4 trainers) and by its teaching program. Indeed, I have always baked organically and I wanted to create a school capable of supporting people who are changing to the organic and sourdough sector. We are the only school in Europe to deliver an official professional diploma, recognised by the state. I submitted this title to the French government in 2012 so that the profession of organic and sourdough baker would be recognised. It is crazy to think that French bakery schools teach almost nothing about sourdough and the organic sector!

Since the school's inception, we have supported over 200 openings. None of the companies opened have closed for economic reasons. We currently accompany 44 trainees per year and 80% of them open their own bakery.

This success is also linked to a fairly modern approach to baking. We are a trade school, but not just that! The trainees are supported in the engineering part of their project (business, finance, equipment sizing, etc.).Our public is largely a graduate one. They are adults (mainly aged 30-50) looking for meaning in their work. In my opinion, it is necessary to have a theoretical approach to the food industry.It makes us more open-minded bakers.

How has the pandemic effected bread making for professionals and home bakers?

For professionals, it depends on the geographical area.
With the urban exodus during the confinements, the bakers in the provinces worked well, the urban shops suffered, especially in the Paris region.

For amateurs, the confinements were periods of extraordinary blossoming! because most of people who are at home take time to cook and bake.
For a part of them it was also a trigger in the choice to change profession!

What do you look for in a well baked bread?

I don't always look for the same thing. It all depends on the bread. But to be broad, open crumb, soft fluffy and generous, thick and super crispy crusts. I like very dark crusts, bordering on burnt. We have the right to disagree, okay?

Your favorite grain?

For real? Rice! I eat rice every day. It's a wonderful grain. But I don't grow it, the climate in Provence doesn't allow it. Of the cereals I grow on my farm, my favourite is einkorn. It is a hardy plant, the straws are fine and the ears delicate. The aromas are incomparable.

Some people eat gluten free because of celiac disease, do you think people also just are following a trend?

The problem with this type of question is the term "people". There is no such thing as "people", there are many different individuals! Of course there are coeliacs, of course there are followers who eat gluten free like Djoko or Serena Williams. But when you know that 5 to 10% of the population in developed countries now eat gluten-free, in a total or partial eviction diet, it is difficult to talk about a simple fashion. Fads come and go, but this movement seems to have taken root.

In my opinion, it is important that consumers find a lasting personal interest in it.
Otherwise, we cannot understand why people make life difficult for themselves and accept to pay more without any benefit in return. It is important to understand that a lot of customers mix their diet to eat less gluten. We have seen this movement on alcohol for years. Consume less but consume better. Customers are therefore looking for better quality wheat breads in addition to gluten-free products. The popularity of wheat and rye sourdough breads is part of the same movement as the rise in popularity of rice and buckwheat breads. Let's stop being divisive, let's stay open.

For your information, I created in 2014 the Chambelland bakery which offers 100% organic and gluten-free products in Paris. I exploit my love for rice to produce fresh, healthy bread and pastries without any improvers.

At the same time, I set up my own mill ("Moulin Chambelland") where I produce all our rice and buckwheat flours with my partners. The rice comes from Italy where we work directly with producers. This work has been an important opening in my life as a baker. It's a completely virgin sector, perfect for free spirits!

How much of bread baking is craft or science?

No doubt, bread baking is 100% craft. But it would be wrong if I did not add that it is also 100% science! Science gives the baker the means to predict what he will do.
Being predictive is one of the foundations of creativity. To get out of a purely mimetic profession, it is necessary to have a good understanding of the living matter in our hands. Yes, we also make bread with our heads. We finally work with intelligent hands

 

What bread did you grow up eating?

I was lucky enough to grow up at a time when French baking was not yet standardized by the big mills. All the crafts bakers made unique bread. At that time there were common breads made with yeast, poolish, old dough... I only discovered sourdough bread at a late stage, as French bakers had not been working with sourdough since the beginning of the 20th century.

Is there a renaissance in French artisan baking?

The French conventional sector (yeast bread, organic bread) is very standardised with the development of national brands that compete with the conventional craftsmen on their own ground. You can find the same bread everywhere and the same industrial croissants. (80% of French bakeries buy their croissants frozen and ready to bake). In parallel to this sad picture, the organic and sourdough sectors are actively developing. This is where the EIDB is investing.

So, yes, obviously, we are on a very active scene. Probably one of the most active in the world with the rapid development of organic and sourdough bakeries.
We have new players of all sizes: farmer-bakers, artisan bakers and industrialists.

 

Explain your love of panettone and viennoiserie?

Not being a sweet tooth, I fell into panettone by head. It's simply amazing to see sourdough products with such volume, shelf life and no acidity. First I wanted to understand. Over a period of 10 years, I carried out research, reflections and experiments to finally write my last book on the subject.

The biological part that underlies the whole field of sourdough pastries is extraordinary. It is a saga of defeats and revolutions. I never thought that during my university studies in biology I would be so moved by petri dishes. Today, I have been selected for the final of the French panettone championship and I will represent France in November at the World Championships in Lugano.

Sourdough pastries are a challenge for all sourdough bakers. It's a great tool to re-mobilise the teams. The practice around sourdough pastries is obviously a pleasure and an important challenge. Every time the dough comes out mixers and ovens we are administrative beginners! Personally, sourdough pastries have given me a lot of energy in my job. The pleasure it gives consumers is magnificent.

Like most of the playing fields I've ventured into over the past 20 years, it's an almost virgin market. Everything has to be invented in this sector. It's fabulous to see that in bakery, despite the weight of history, there are still entire sections of the industry to create!

 

How different is bread between countries from grain to production or how similar ?

There is a lot of common ground between bakers around the world. We speak a common language. However, and this is the beauty of the profession, our cultures and practices change, even if they are only 10 kilometres from home. The world is extraordinary to those who have an open mind to welcome it. The bakery world is no exception to the rule.

Are relations between millers and bakers more important due to climate change?

I am not sure that one can generalise in this way.
There is still a large majority of bakers who do not know that wheat grows in the fields or that milling is a profession! But there are also more and more bakers who are deeply involved in milling and cultivation. As a result, the farmer-miller-baker professions are developing very quickly all over the world. With a large representation in France.

How difficult is it to explain bread in a book rather than in a baking class?

Interactive pedagogy in the classroom allows for a back and forth approach to new concepts. The book should be more linear. But it is less easy to find a thread that starts from A and goes to Z to explain bread-making or any other subject. It seems to me that multiple perspectives on the same subject allow it to take on its full dimension.
Obviously, when you can alternate theory and practice, it is always more motivating. But I think most people who buy baking books practice at home as they read them.

Your thoughts on “ancient” grains, has that become a branding word?

Ancient doesn't mean much indeed. 20 years, 100 years, 1000 years? that is ancient. The same goes for the notion of local raw materials. Are we talking about 10, 50, 1000 kilometres?
For the so-called ancient wheat, there are several notions. Since seed companies have been selling seeds all over the world (second half of the 19th century), biodiversity has collapsed in the fields. This movement accelerated after the Second World War.

Growing old wheat is therefore valuable in terms of safeguarding the varietal heritage.
Another important date is the introduction of strong genetic techniques in wheat improvement. Since 1990, selection is no longer just a matter of selection as Mendel understood it. Genetics makes it possible to make unnatural crosses and, for the conventional sector, transgenesis.

Beyond the rather vague but easily marketed notion of ancient and modern, there is a more interesting and political notion. That of the farmers' ability to control their own seeds. The book "Our Bread is Political: Peasant Wheat versus the Bread Industry" Paperback - Illustrated, 11 September 2019, sets out the debate on these notions. It would seem to me that it would be fairer to deploy energy and move towards the notion of peasant wheat rather than ancient wheat.

Personally, I grow my own cereals and I mix old and modern varieties because the baking quality of the flour produced is important to me. It should be noted that although everyone talks about ancient wheat, it represents less than 1% of wheat produced and consumed, even in the specifically organic and sourdough sector. We are all dual on this subject: we love ancient wheats and we love to bake modern varieties that give fabulous pasta. In twenty years in France, the W of standard organic flours has risen from 180 to 230!

What’s your next book going to be about?

I have just published a book in Hebrew written with an Israeli friend: Ranit. And the Spanish and English versions of my "Treatise on sourdough baking" will be available to the public at the end of October. (for sale on my website bread-editions.com). For the next titles, I'm hesitating between a collection of poems, a book about cold baking and a practical guide to the production of Turkish Halva. (almost as exciting and difficult to make as panettone!).

THE END

Wolf

As much as I dislike department store shopping, I love Nordstrom's New York City restaurant, Wolf. My wife introduced me to it, and periodically we visit for lunch. The menu is filled with fresh pastas and salads, along with a nod to Italian cuisine and use of local products. It also has a delicious selection of wines. 

On our last visit, manager Chris Pein kindly introduced us to a wonderful Tuscan orange wine. I also enjoyed a spaghetti with Alaska king crab. And I got to meet the line cook who prepared it, Krystal Lewis, who came out to thank me for my salutations. Here's some of what we've tried happily...

 

 

 

Eliot Z. Felde & Breadcrumbs

Meet Eliot Z. Felde. He's one of the collaborators of an interesting new book, Breadcrumbs. An American now living in Berlin, Felde collaborated with a group of local artists to create this between an art book and a celebration of... well, the concept of sandwiches. As well as delivering colorful recipes, it explores the way the sandwich,  basic staple around the world, intersects with economics, art and culture. It's a wonderfully designed book. And as Felde's photo might suggest, he's created something slyly playful. Looking at the book, we thought it would be great to have him tell us more about it. Here is our interview that we conducted via email. 

 

 

I have a three questions to start with; what led you to Berlin, what led you to work in restaurants, and what led you to write this book?

I grew up north of Boston. Then I moved to London for my undergraduate degree. From London I moved to Paris and worked for some artists there for about six months. In Paris I was offered a job in a small Berlin publishing house, so I moved to Berlin. 

 

I stumbled into my job at a Greek restaurant because it's right across the street from where I live. My girlfriend asked once if they needed help in the kitchen and they took me in mostly to clean dishes. But I'm now learning more how to prepare and serve the food. 

 

The Breadcrumb book emerged from thinking about the petty economics in art rather than the famous headlines from art auctions. I was comparing the economics of a sandwich shop to the income of an artist. What would it be like if an artist received small but frequent payments of €5 Euro and the sandwich shop worked off of commissions and random grants for specific projects. I thought about some of the wonderful artists I know and tried to imagine what kind of sandwiches they could manifest.

 

What is your definition of a sandwich?

As a starting point for the project I loosely defined a sandwich as “an item of food consisting of bread with a filling” but as the project progressed, the sandwiches evolved beyond their initial definition into something new. 

 

What inspired you about the sandwich as a starting point? 

Part of it may come from the inability to follow rules curtly uttered such as "Don't play with your food!" 

But moving beyond the item of food, the idea of a sandwich implies something, situated between some other things. Infinite possibilities emerge from this. I imagine the space sandwiched between an artwork and a person looking at that artwork. There's probably something suspicious going on in that space that's worth investigation.

 

One of the more thought provoking chapters was Lara Smithson's Singing Sandwich, one that features crickets as a primary ingredient Is it suggesting climate change will lead to depending on insects for nutrition? Or is is it poking fun at the idea of a boutique cricket harvested delicatessen sandwich?

It's a lovely short piece of writing. It reminds me of some futurological descriptions from Stanislaw Lem. I guess your interpretation of how "fun" the poking may be, depends on your own perspective of our climate and our future. The idea of harvesting crickets as a source of protein is already a reality for a long time but the scale and context could depend on how we react to our changing climate. 

 

VISUAL FROM BREADCRUMBS

 

"To my future singing sandwich" By Lara smithson

 

 

Are layers in a sandwich similar to colors on an artist's palette?

They can be! Or if left long enough alone they could be sediment for future archeologists to sift through in an attempt to retrace the actions that took place in the kitchen or studio.

 

How does art coincide with food?

Both are intended for digestion. Both have the ability to induce nausea. They both hold traces of cultural ritual, remedy and reflection.

 

Have you heard about the project from Salvador Dali and Lionel Poilânes, furniture made of bread?

I have not, however I visited a Dalí museum in Figueres, Catalonia where he lived for some time at the end of his life. The facade of the building is speckled with golden bread-like ornaments and the top of the building is crowned with large sculptural eggs. Neither I believe are edible.

 

On your Instagram, you post a lot of photos of your art projects. Food plays a big role in your artwork. Does your art connect with the past, present or future?

My own art connects with the past, present and future with clothing and textiles that exhibit their own traces of friction and hold memory visibly in their fibers. I work often with the concept of bureaucracy, for example using receipts as a material that documents past exchanges to inform a future context.

 

The artists in the Breadcrumb Project, do they bake bread?

Some of them do make their own bread. For example Mariana Sarraute's recipe "Sleeping cuttlefish on paschal bread" includes a recipe for Paschal bread which is made from Wheat flour, salt, olive oil and a glass of water. Alternatively, the recipe from the artist Hannah Lees, "Oat Cracker, Fig, Fermented Cashew Cheese, Honeycomb, Pine Pollen" includes a recipe for Oat crackers which includes: Plain flour, brown sugar, baking powder, pink salt, olive oil or coconut oil (melted), oats and water.

 

Looking on your Instagram page, I found some interesting artwork featuring crackers and bread. How does bread effect you?

Like a duck I am in constant pursuit of bread even though it may not be the most nutritious food for me. The gluten slows me down but my love for bread is much stronger than my will to resist it.

 

What do you serve in the Greek restaurant where you work in Berlin? Are sandwiches on the menu?

 

We serve lots of hot and quick seafood like octopus and calamari. We have other Greek classics like Souvlaki which is like some disassembled chicken sandwich with pita style bread and tzatziki.

 

VISUAL FROM BREADCRUMBS                             

David Martínez Suárez, "the center of the rainbow is always opposite to the sun"

 

 

What sort of sandwich is most common in Berlin?

By far the most popular sandwich in Berlin is the Döner Kebab which is seasoned meat or chicken cooked on a vertical rotisserie and sliced off gradually as it cooks. The meat is served on Turkish bread with salad and a variety of sauces. The sandwich is claimed to be invented in Berlin from the Turkish immigrants that came to work in Berlin in the 1970s. Late at night this is often the only food available but usually it's all I need.

 

I’ve always had an interest in the supposed creator of “the sandwich”, John Montagu, 4^th Earl of Sandwich; any ideas or take on him, the name, the layering of meat and bread?

There is a wonderful introduction in Breadcrumb by Jimmie Durham where he playfully dismisses the prestige of Lord Sandwich, Durham writes: "Before him, we are expected to guess, no poor person in the entire world ever thought to put meat, cheese or cucumbers and tomatoes in a bread holder, even though most of these jerks had no plates, knives or forks for thousands of years."

 

In your book, there's a chapter where you talk about "Chorleywood bread." That interested me because artisan bakers look at that as mechanically processed, inferior quality bread. It's puffy like a cloud with no substance. What's your response to that? 

I think there is some kind of resurrection of certain food items which have long been considered inferior such as SPAM or soft cheap white bread; people are re-examining these ingredients and tasing them again with revised curiosity. Fluffy like a cloud makes me think of the Japanese milk bread Shokupan which is also becoming more popular outside of Japan.

 

Why do you think baking bread during the pandemic has been so popular?

I think part of the fascination with baking bread is the subliminal idea that we are playing survivors in an apocalyptic circumstance. Baking bread also holds a similar magic to me that is similar to developing photographs in a darkroom, seemingly mundane ingredients coming together to form something more than the sum of its parts. Watching a loaf appear from the heat after slapping a cloud of flour and a splash of water together really feels like magic.  

 

Toast has become a brand in, itself. Is it just another form of bread or a thing on its own?

I think of Josh (@LoserCrew) who wrote on twitter, "I fucking love toast, what absolute genius took a bite of bread and was like "cook it again", unreal"

For this project, toast may have been significantly more important than bread solely on its ability to create crumbs on a scale that bread just can't compete with.

 

Finally, tell us, what's your favorite sandwich?

A fresh baguette, some mortadella and butter. This sandwich is my favorite not because it is the most tasty creation I could conjure, but I often make it when I am in motion, with time spent more urgently on other things. This sandwich represents a time when my mind and hands are active and occupied, when I don't have time to go fishing.

 

 

Le St. Urbain

In 2012, visiting Montreal, I met Marc-Andre Royal at his restaurant, Le St. Urbain et Bête à pain. For whatever reason, at the time, I did not try any of his food. For my recent Montreal visit, I made sure to make a date with Marc-Andre. He warned me, "this time we are going to feed you." He wasn't kidding. My visit included exceptional service and food. He has a great team, made up of some serious women working the line. Here's what we saw and ate. Next time I am in Montreal, I'm coming back for seconds!

 

Olive et Gourmando

Here's one of the marvelous spots from my visit to Montreal. Besides enjoying a great meal, I met former-CIA analyst and current MSNBC commentator Malcolm Nance, who was also enjoying its food. Great place I had visited previously and had to return. Someday maybe they'll share their recipe for the exquisite prune bread. In the meantime, here's some photos of what we enjoyed. 

 

Maison Publique

Derek Dammann is a Canadian chef who I first met at D&A. Visiting Montreal recently, I had a chance to try his cuisine at Maison Publique, a restaurant with simply presented, locally sourced, brilliant food.  Here's some of what we had.

Bob Perry

 

 

 

I met Kentuckian Bob Perry at a charcuterie event in Flushing New York. I was actually introduced to him by my former sous-chef, Bob Del Grasso, who now lives and works in rural Pennsylvania (here's his blog). Later Perry reached out to tell me about a Kentucky farm whose owners would send me some grains to try.

 

Perry grew up in Kentucky, but has traveled the world, and worked as as a chef in France's Provence-Alpes-Cote d’Azur region. In college, Perry majored in sociology and philosophy, then earned a masters degree in sociology. He started off his food career working in steakhouses, ultimately becoming a restaurant owner as well as a chef. Today he's "chef in residence" at the University of Kentucky's Department of Human Nutrition. We invited Bob to Stir the Pots as someone who simultaneously thinks and operates deeply in the world of food. My first question concerned the media platform that we share.

 

 

Is posting food on social media hurting or helping understand food processing?

 

Helping no doubt.  The ‘salt cured pig’ group brought together both professional and amateur folks interested in curing meat that would have probably never met before social media.  The affinity groups that have formed are the most positive aspect of it.

 

Research in food isn’t just about science is it?

 

Science matters but so does taste, nutrition and the environmental impact.  Novel foods touted as “better” without a life cycle analysis can be very deceiving.

 

Was your time in France at Les Relais à Moutiers like a class you teach today at UK?

 

In a way the students are absorbing knowledge from me like I did from the chef at Le Relais.  Of course, many of the things I learned there I now teach them.

 

Favorite food?

 

Foie gras!  Seafood is up there, too. I was known for my touch with it when I had my own bistro.  Nowadays I cook almost strictly from my local food shed, whatever is in season or in my freezer.  I recently installed an Aga range in my home kitchen, it is a whole different way of cooking and fun!

 

What foodstuffs are iconic in Kentucky? 

 

Bourbon and country ham of course.  Some of the iconic dishes would be the ‘hot brown’, rolled oysters and Benedictine spread from Louisville, ‘burgoo’ from West Kentucky and ‘soup beans’ from Appalachia.  I once had to fire a chef at a state park because he could not grasp the difference between soup beans and bean soup.  Soup beans are pintos cooked with country ham hocks, period. They're served with hoe cakes and raw onion.  He kept putting mirepoix in it. The locals rebelled!  Oysters in Louisville came about because of the invention of the steamboat.  We shipped bourbon and what-not to New Orleans and were then able to bring fresh oysters back.  

 

Describe your "Ubatuba chicken dish."

 

I worked for several years with ubatuba peppers making paprika and a paprikash made with it is incredible.  No special tricks, just great ingredients.

 

What is it like working a kitchen, as well as farming and teaching?

 

No two days are the same.  You can’t be a chef and not be a teacher, I love imparting culinary knowledge to my students, knowledge they can use for the rest of their life even if they don’t stay in the hospitality field.  At best I am a gentleman farmer, more a steward of the land my wife’s family owns.  Working with farmers and being in a land grant college of agriculture has deepened my knowledge of food immensely.

 

Why do you think people were drawn by the pandemic to food and bread baking?

 

Folks really had time to devote to baking since they could barely leave their residences. I did a local TV interview early in the pandemic about cooking and reminded folks that “You can make a taco out of anything, and you can always put an egg on it”.

 

Are we branding food incorrectly?

 

Non-profits are trying to brand good food attributes but every time a new label or certification gains traction it is co-opted bybig food companies and the green washing begins. Really knowing your farmer is the best defense.

 

When not cooking, what other hobbies do you have?

 

I grow a vegetable garden every summer and do a lot of landscaping around the property. Our house is 150+ years old and I guess you could call maintenance of it a hobby.  I’m thankful for all the shop classes I took in high school.

 

Have farmers become more common partners to average people or mostly professionals? Are farmers markets getting better?

 

Define farmer.  I have friends that direct market everything their farm produces, others farming thousands of acres and everything in between.  Farmers markets in urban areas are usually quite diverse in their offerings and growing, not so much in small towns and rural areas.  What I have seen is that folks that delve into eating local don’t go back to commodity and do come to see their local farmers as partners.

 

Are you writing a book?

 

I should, I’ve had some amazing experiences.  I’ve worked onprivate yachts, trains, steamboats, high speed ferries, done gigs in Provence and Japan, owned my own place and met some of the most interesting folks along the way.

 

Do you listen to music while cooking?

 

Yes except when teaching. I don’t allow the students to play music except in the dish room and its usually a dance party in there.  I listen to music constantly, mostly blues and Americana. I have a sound system in my tiny office with a 200w subwoofer.

 

 

THE END

Liverpool House

Visiting Montreal, one of our goals was a dinner at Joe Beef. Finding it was booked, we decided to try its partner restaurant, Liverpool House. Arriving there after a six hour airport travail (COVID, lines, a multitude of time-stealing boring details) we were late for our reservation. But the hosts were kind enough to immediately take two enormously hungry American cousins. The server was was great with wine, meal suggestions, and charm. And the food was terrific. Oysters from Prince Edward Island were amazing, as was a crudo of striped bass that reminded me of Grenobloise. Here's some of what we saw and had!